The 'core Europe' hypothesis is imteresting. Maybe it is part of why Catalan culture (which was a semi-indpendent march of Charlemagne's empire) has so often found itself at cross-purposes to the rest of Spain.
I would also argue that historically the south-east of England, especially Kent was far more part of a Carolingian sphere of influence than the rest of Britain ever was. I wonder if that influenced the culture of the region too.
I think as far back as the 5th or early 6th century Kentish grave show Frankish influence, so yes it's always been there. East Anglia/Essex has always been heavily influenced by the Low Countries too.
I am reminded of a series of Jonathan Meades's "Even Further Abroad" - which was based on the premise, as with similarly titled series, there was as much of the exotic, strange and interesting in the regions and subcultures of Britain as there is to be found abroad. In particular there was an episode entitled Double Dutch in which he spends the first five minutes pretending he is in Holland only to reveal all the footage had been shot in Norfolk all along.
East Lothian and parts of Fife is similar. The red roof slating of cottages across both counties highlights their Hanseatic trading links and is not a feature of the West of Scotland.
It's also the case that western Germany had connections not only with France proper but with the lands of the Duchy of Burgundy, one of the early centers of the Renaissance (and the rise of capitalism) and somewhat more distantly with northern Italy.
I served on a number of army exercises in West Germany in the late 80s, mainly in NW Germany which was the British AOR (it's interesting how the route of advance from Normandy, and where the Allied armies subsequently halted in 1945, dictated where they remained for the next fifty-odd years).
The thing I noticed was when we were in full exercise mode, pretending The Russians Were Coming, was the people were 'nicer' the closer you were to the border with the DDR. In the towns, people would shake their heads as camouflaged platoons trooped along the streets 'why?' they would say. 'Go home'. In the countryside, they were great. We set up our HQ in a farmer's barn. People from the village arrived with fresh coffee and pastries to say hello. I was quite touched. Then, of course, I realised how close to having the Russians 'liberate' them they were, forty-five years previously. Well within living memory. We were there to fight Russians. And the older people remembered them from 1945.
So I think the ghost border / 'psychogeography' aspect you mention is correct. I also think there are many strands to it, too.
That's fascinating, and yes I can imagine how grateful they were to have the western allies arrive first, especially the women.
I think the most pro-American indoctrination I got as a child was visiting East Berlin as a child, and actually seeing American soldiers (and having our pictures taken with two of them with their Russian counterpart). Makes you realise what the alternative is.
As an aside, if any readers are from London (especially those too young to remember the Cold War), I can heartily recommend the exhibition at the British Army Museum in Chelsea on Britain in Germany ('From Enemies to Allies' I think it's called). It really is excellent (and free). A social and military history. Given we're all about to traipse back over there to do it all again, it might be quite instructive!
The most pro-American indoctrination this American got was as a graduate student needing to do research in East Berlin in 1979. More barbed wire, police of several sorts (all profoundly unpleasant) and snarling Alsatians in the middle of the night than I ever hope to see again.
The problem with maps like these (and first past the post) is that what can look like a massive difference could just be a couple of percentage points.
If the biggest party only won by 2% in each part of Germany the real difference would be minimum (I'm not say it is true - but it could be true).
True, and why most British political 'narratives' are wildly exaggerated. The people chose/rejected Corbynism can come down to a very small number of voters
Exactly, and the "smug fantasy" Ed refers to is substantially borne out by the facts. The AfD came second in most Western parts of Germany, and although not hitting the highs of Thuringia, the vote shows it also has significant traction in the West. In Nordrhein-Westfalen, heartland of West German smugness, AfD managed 16.4% and everywhere else it did even better; in Bavaria and Hessen, 17.4%, in Baden-Württemberg, 19.4%, and in Saarland 21.6%.
Re: This roughly corresponds to Charlemagne’s kingdom – France, the Low Countries, northern Italy and western Germany - and the region still has distinctive traits today.
I do think you have to add England to that since after the conversion of the Anglosaxons to Christianity the island became a source of missionaries going east to convert their Germanic cousins. And Alfred the Great sponsored a revival of learning while also fighting the Danes.
I remember reading something by Daniel Finkelstein where he said that areas of Germany that had passed antisemitic bylaws in the Middle Ages had greater support for the Nazis.
One thing I noticed when I lived in Germany was that Easterners had a much more relaxed attitude to nudity, bodily functions and all that kind of thing than their Western compatriots (who were themselves pretty liberal by British Isles standards). I put it down to the more secular culture of the East, but who knows.
I often wonder if the enfranchised women of Britain are responsible for the 75% of the time the Tories are in power. No matter what the history is, women are more conservative than men and vote for a quiet life. Men mostly vote according to their financial situation so the balance of power is determined by the choice of women. In Germany the SPD nearly vanished after being in coalition with Merkel’s CDP for so long that the association with socialism was practically lost. It is amazing that the CDP with less than 30% of the vote is hailed as the outright winner of the election and its programme will now be implemented throughout the country. It defies any normal concept of democracy.
Agreed that it is bizarre to hail the CDU, with its unimpressive 25.5% support for its unimpressive WEF leader, as the "winner" but, anodyne though his policies are, the real outcome is much, much worse. The coalition is yet to be formed, but it is already obvious that the CDU's programme will not now be implemented: Merz, imprisoned by the firewall of his own cowardice, has nowhere to turn to but the SPD and the SPD know it.
The CDU's sudden pre-election discovery of the importance of borders and immigration control and fiscal discipline will, under the imperative of the SPD's demands, disappear. Thus, the policies that will be enacted will not even be those of a party that managed 25% but those of a party that managed around 20%, less than the ostracised AfD.
That is the final insult to the voters: the CDU only "won" by presenting itself as an AfD-lite, but the refusal to accept democracy (apparently necessary to protect democracy) and enter into the obvious CDU/AfD coalition, means the electorate will be served up the same Statist stodge as failed before the election.
"the policies that will be enacted will not even be those of a party that managed 25% but those of a party that managed around 20%, less than the ostracised AfD."
One of the most damning lines I've heard against proportional representation:
"It replaces first past the post with third past the post".
This will be like the Cameron-Clegg coalition where the Tories were unable to pursue conservative policies on account of their coalition partners (not that they really wanted to anyway).
Merz’s government cannot last, for natural law will not permit it.
What is ‘natural law’? It is a coagulation of human morality and intelligence with nature.
It is the instinctive awareness of what is right and what is wrong, of what is just and what is unjust, of what is rational and what is irrational and of what will endure and what will not.
It is essentially an optimistic phenomenon that holds that most human beings are fundamentally decent, sensible and capable of living their lives with only a small amount of regulatory constraint - because, whether by way of religious credo, clan or family values or a deep intrinsic respect and compassion for other people and nature, almost all individuals, families and societies can and do combine to live harmoniously and productively.
Essentially, human goodness and common sense procures good outcomes that do not need to be enforced beyond a handful of the Ten Commandments - and and all other laws must be based on simplicity and rationality.
The Left DOES NOT believe in fundamental human decency and have always sought to regulate extensively behaviour to control as many outcomes as possible.
Nor do political parties that have been in power long enough to manipulate systems, procedures and rhetoric to secure extended periods of office.
The AfD, like Reform, like Meloni, like Milei, like Trump DO believe in ’natural law’ and the latent power of human decency and industry and the need for minimally regulated societies.
This is why, the control-freaks demonise and smear them and resort to irrational, unprincipled and often unconstitutional methods to thwart their progress. They fear losing control. They fear losing their entire strategy to control world, they fear losing their lavish salaries and perks - and they fear being held accountable for their great mistakes and crimes.
What is being done to the AfD in Germany is worse than what was meted out to UKIP for 20yrs before the successful referendum. Mark that 20yr period…..for goodness does not prevail immediately, it takes time for people to discern right from wrong, but when momentum is running, critical mass can accumulate quite quickly.
Boris Johnson perceived the change quite clearly, and later his abilities procured substantial electoral success in 2019, but somewhat typically he lacked courage and moral fibre, and exchanged the potential role of 21C Churchill he so badly desired for the role of public health tyrant and war-monger. He is now but a contemptible cipher - all the more because he betrayed the tenets of natural law.
Elsewhere, since the unadulterated wickedness visited upon the world in 2020-22, those individuals and groups who live by natural law have been emerging either victorious or on the cusp of success all over the world.
SO WE SHOULD BE CONFIDENT, FOR FUNDAMENTALLY DECENT HUMAN BELIEFS AND BEHAVIOUR WILL TRIUMPH.
Do not be intimidated by the silence or slanders of those who state that opposing mass migration cannot possibly be regarded ‘decent’. Recall that ’natural law’ is determined by BOTH the heart and the mind - both compassion and rationality. There can be no world without migration, indeed natural law demands it. However it must happen slowly and steadily; and those who intend to destroy the country/culture they seek to enter must be denied.
In summary, we must be true to both our heads and hearts, there must be balance - a natural balance.
Rules of thumb for Germany: Western European Rhineland; Eastern European Prussia; Middle European Bavaria. Prussia=Junkers=Wehrmacht; Bavaria=Nazis; Rhineland/The Ruhr=Socialism and capitalism and liberalism.
The 'core Europe' hypothesis is imteresting. Maybe it is part of why Catalan culture (which was a semi-indpendent march of Charlemagne's empire) has so often found itself at cross-purposes to the rest of Spain.
I would also argue that historically the south-east of England, especially Kent was far more part of a Carolingian sphere of influence than the rest of Britain ever was. I wonder if that influenced the culture of the region too.
I think as far back as the 5th or early 6th century Kentish grave show Frankish influence, so yes it's always been there. East Anglia/Essex has always been heavily influenced by the Low Countries too.
I am reminded of a series of Jonathan Meades's "Even Further Abroad" - which was based on the premise, as with similarly titled series, there was as much of the exotic, strange and interesting in the regions and subcultures of Britain as there is to be found abroad. In particular there was an episode entitled Double Dutch in which he spends the first five minutes pretending he is in Holland only to reveal all the footage had been shot in Norfolk all along.
East Lothian and parts of Fife is similar. The red roof slating of cottages across both counties highlights their Hanseatic trading links and is not a feature of the West of Scotland.
It's also the case that western Germany had connections not only with France proper but with the lands of the Duchy of Burgundy, one of the early centers of the Renaissance (and the rise of capitalism) and somewhat more distantly with northern Italy.
I served on a number of army exercises in West Germany in the late 80s, mainly in NW Germany which was the British AOR (it's interesting how the route of advance from Normandy, and where the Allied armies subsequently halted in 1945, dictated where they remained for the next fifty-odd years).
The thing I noticed was when we were in full exercise mode, pretending The Russians Were Coming, was the people were 'nicer' the closer you were to the border with the DDR. In the towns, people would shake their heads as camouflaged platoons trooped along the streets 'why?' they would say. 'Go home'. In the countryside, they were great. We set up our HQ in a farmer's barn. People from the village arrived with fresh coffee and pastries to say hello. I was quite touched. Then, of course, I realised how close to having the Russians 'liberate' them they were, forty-five years previously. Well within living memory. We were there to fight Russians. And the older people remembered them from 1945.
So I think the ghost border / 'psychogeography' aspect you mention is correct. I also think there are many strands to it, too.
That's fascinating, and yes I can imagine how grateful they were to have the western allies arrive first, especially the women.
I think the most pro-American indoctrination I got as a child was visiting East Berlin as a child, and actually seeing American soldiers (and having our pictures taken with two of them with their Russian counterpart). Makes you realise what the alternative is.
As an aside, if any readers are from London (especially those too young to remember the Cold War), I can heartily recommend the exhibition at the British Army Museum in Chelsea on Britain in Germany ('From Enemies to Allies' I think it's called). It really is excellent (and free). A social and military history. Given we're all about to traipse back over there to do it all again, it might be quite instructive!
The most pro-American indoctrination this American got was as a graduate student needing to do research in East Berlin in 1979. More barbed wire, police of several sorts (all profoundly unpleasant) and snarling Alsatians in the middle of the night than I ever hope to see again.
The problem with maps like these (and first past the post) is that what can look like a massive difference could just be a couple of percentage points.
If the biggest party only won by 2% in each part of Germany the real difference would be minimum (I'm not say it is true - but it could be true).
True, and why most British political 'narratives' are wildly exaggerated. The people chose/rejected Corbynism can come down to a very small number of voters
Exactly, and the "smug fantasy" Ed refers to is substantially borne out by the facts. The AfD came second in most Western parts of Germany, and although not hitting the highs of Thuringia, the vote shows it also has significant traction in the West. In Nordrhein-Westfalen, heartland of West German smugness, AfD managed 16.4% and everywhere else it did even better; in Bavaria and Hessen, 17.4%, in Baden-Württemberg, 19.4%, and in Saarland 21.6%.
Isn’t that because Kent was Christianized from Rome whereas other parts of England were Christianized from Ireland?
Re: This roughly corresponds to Charlemagne’s kingdom – France, the Low Countries, northern Italy and western Germany - and the region still has distinctive traits today.
I do think you have to add England to that since after the conversion of the Anglosaxons to Christianity the island became a source of missionaries going east to convert their Germanic cousins. And Alfred the Great sponsored a revival of learning while also fighting the Danes.
yes. Most core Europe theorists include England, or certainly SE England
In 2019, a book was published in "Lotharingia", the historic name for the region between France and Germany:
https://www.google.ca/books/edition/Lotharingia/Q8ZtDwAAQBAJ?hl=en
I remember reading something by Daniel Finkelstein where he said that areas of Germany that had passed antisemitic bylaws in the Middle Ages had greater support for the Nazis.
Interesting. Wonder what the common link was
He is a journalist, not a historian.
One thing I noticed when I lived in Germany was that Easterners had a much more relaxed attitude to nudity, bodily functions and all that kind of thing than their Western compatriots (who were themselves pretty liberal by British Isles standards). I put it down to the more secular culture of the East, but who knows.
I often wonder if the enfranchised women of Britain are responsible for the 75% of the time the Tories are in power. No matter what the history is, women are more conservative than men and vote for a quiet life. Men mostly vote according to their financial situation so the balance of power is determined by the choice of women. In Germany the SPD nearly vanished after being in coalition with Merkel’s CDP for so long that the association with socialism was practically lost. It is amazing that the CDP with less than 30% of the vote is hailed as the outright winner of the election and its programme will now be implemented throughout the country. It defies any normal concept of democracy.
Agreed that it is bizarre to hail the CDU, with its unimpressive 25.5% support for its unimpressive WEF leader, as the "winner" but, anodyne though his policies are, the real outcome is much, much worse. The coalition is yet to be formed, but it is already obvious that the CDU's programme will not now be implemented: Merz, imprisoned by the firewall of his own cowardice, has nowhere to turn to but the SPD and the SPD know it.
The CDU's sudden pre-election discovery of the importance of borders and immigration control and fiscal discipline will, under the imperative of the SPD's demands, disappear. Thus, the policies that will be enacted will not even be those of a party that managed 25% but those of a party that managed around 20%, less than the ostracised AfD.
That is the final insult to the voters: the CDU only "won" by presenting itself as an AfD-lite, but the refusal to accept democracy (apparently necessary to protect democracy) and enter into the obvious CDU/AfD coalition, means the electorate will be served up the same Statist stodge as failed before the election.
"the policies that will be enacted will not even be those of a party that managed 25% but those of a party that managed around 20%, less than the ostracised AfD."
One of the most damning lines I've heard against proportional representation:
"It replaces first past the post with third past the post".
This will be like the Cameron-Clegg coalition where the Tories were unable to pursue conservative policies on account of their coalition partners (not that they really wanted to anyway).
Nail on head…
Will it's programme really now be implemented across the country though?
Their coalition partners will be able to veto anything, unless the CDU relies on AfD votes (which would make a farce of the coalition).
Merz’s government cannot last, for natural law will not permit it.
What is ‘natural law’? It is a coagulation of human morality and intelligence with nature.
It is the instinctive awareness of what is right and what is wrong, of what is just and what is unjust, of what is rational and what is irrational and of what will endure and what will not.
It is essentially an optimistic phenomenon that holds that most human beings are fundamentally decent, sensible and capable of living their lives with only a small amount of regulatory constraint - because, whether by way of religious credo, clan or family values or a deep intrinsic respect and compassion for other people and nature, almost all individuals, families and societies can and do combine to live harmoniously and productively.
Essentially, human goodness and common sense procures good outcomes that do not need to be enforced beyond a handful of the Ten Commandments - and and all other laws must be based on simplicity and rationality.
The Left DOES NOT believe in fundamental human decency and have always sought to regulate extensively behaviour to control as many outcomes as possible.
Nor do political parties that have been in power long enough to manipulate systems, procedures and rhetoric to secure extended periods of office.
The AfD, like Reform, like Meloni, like Milei, like Trump DO believe in ’natural law’ and the latent power of human decency and industry and the need for minimally regulated societies.
This is why, the control-freaks demonise and smear them and resort to irrational, unprincipled and often unconstitutional methods to thwart their progress. They fear losing control. They fear losing their entire strategy to control world, they fear losing their lavish salaries and perks - and they fear being held accountable for their great mistakes and crimes.
What is being done to the AfD in Germany is worse than what was meted out to UKIP for 20yrs before the successful referendum. Mark that 20yr period…..for goodness does not prevail immediately, it takes time for people to discern right from wrong, but when momentum is running, critical mass can accumulate quite quickly.
Boris Johnson perceived the change quite clearly, and later his abilities procured substantial electoral success in 2019, but somewhat typically he lacked courage and moral fibre, and exchanged the potential role of 21C Churchill he so badly desired for the role of public health tyrant and war-monger. He is now but a contemptible cipher - all the more because he betrayed the tenets of natural law.
Elsewhere, since the unadulterated wickedness visited upon the world in 2020-22, those individuals and groups who live by natural law have been emerging either victorious or on the cusp of success all over the world.
SO WE SHOULD BE CONFIDENT, FOR FUNDAMENTALLY DECENT HUMAN BELIEFS AND BEHAVIOUR WILL TRIUMPH.
Do not be intimidated by the silence or slanders of those who state that opposing mass migration cannot possibly be regarded ‘decent’. Recall that ’natural law’ is determined by BOTH the heart and the mind - both compassion and rationality. There can be no world without migration, indeed natural law demands it. However it must happen slowly and steadily; and those who intend to destroy the country/culture they seek to enter must be denied.
In summary, we must be true to both our heads and hearts, there must be balance - a natural balance.
Rules of thumb for Germany: Western European Rhineland; Eastern European Prussia; Middle European Bavaria. Prussia=Junkers=Wehrmacht; Bavaria=Nazis; Rhineland/The Ruhr=Socialism and capitalism and liberalism.