“When Tories say they don’t want an American-style culture war, what they really mean is ‘where are the surrender papers?”
I hesitate to write what follows, since it makes me seem more reactionary than I actually am, and since I think “culture war” is an unhelpful metaphor at the best of times. There’s nothing wrong with intense debate and sharply conflicting opinions about the kind of society we want to live in, and we would do well to defuse the rhetoric by starting to talk about “the culture argument” or “the culture debate”.
But if we are going use the terminology of warfare, why do we never hear conservatives pointing out that the culture war has been waged for sixty years, very successfully, by the liberal left, and that it's the conservative response which is a defensive one? Guardian journalists or Blairite politicians will accuse a conservative of “starting” a culture war when he challenges any of the social transformations that left-liberal politics has sponsored and promoted since the 1960s; they never imagine themselves having waged a culture war in order to implement those changes in the first place. In other words, it's a piece of rhetoric that helps to delegitimise any suggestion that any of these changes should be reversed.
This is rather like the Russians annexing Crimea and the Donbass, and then accusing the Ukrainians of aggression for wanting to recover them.
Wonderfully stated, Basil. I have been pounding my fist on this point over here in America for years now. It is the progressives who initiate the culture battles in classrooms and workplaces; it is the conservatives who respond. Yet, because the Left controls our cultural discourse, they get to control the narrative and brand conservatives as culture warriors and bigots.
About wokeism in the UK: on the other hand, you are also a proud citizen of the land known to uppity women everywhere as Terf Island! Among other things I hope to read about someday, surely a book will eventually be written about why it was in England that women were first able to successfully organize the pushback against gender ideology. It's not all bending the knee to American culture war nonsense over there, at all at all.
This reply to Douthat’s article summed it up nicely for me:
MtnFrost
Boulder CO
Let's be clear - republicans are conservatives, and conservatives have been on the wrong side of every issue including the founding of our country, when the conservatives sided with England. Slavery, suffrage, Civil Rights, interracial marriage, gay marriage, siding with Russia over Ukraine. Forced birth.
Woke is Christ and the teachings of every major religion. Every great president we've ever had, has been a liberal progressive. Mt Rushmore? All liberal progressives. You need to understand that your views and beliefs are wrong, and represent everything evil in the world.
1- I think he is ignoring Latin America. Burkle and Millei are one side of the culture war there. Like the uncontacted tribes of the Amazon the Woke are definetly there...
2- It is no where so true as the Republic of Ireland. One of the most normie people I follow on Twitter was talking about the decline of the Irish Naval service.- Irish state will not raise it's sailors wages so they don't reenlist or people will not join. Consequence is Ireland has fewer ships for fisheries protection- anti drug and weapons smuggling. Search and rescue. Net result is that Ireland is now more dependent on the UK and the EU then it was 5 years ago. My Pal's comment was that the current govenment of Ireland doesn't see itself as a Soverign State rather a Home Rule Administration-
2a- This is somewhat the same problem as the Body Count question. A British or Irish or Canadian conservative needs to be willing to wrap themselves in the flag and condemn the Yankee menace
Orban is able to blame Brussels when he really often means Hollywood and Wall Street
"if you’re a Twitter user, muting ‘body count’ will improve your experience infinitely." But you'll also miss out on news about Ice T's rap/metal crossover project.
What if we didn’t keep navel gazing and accepted reality. It’s fine to write emotions out of our systems or seek a hug in a crisis. Or recognise moments of deep pain and acknowledge them. But why do we have to insist that emotion rules every aspect of our lives. Caitlin is wrong. We already inhabit a world where the whole world is invited to share their feelings immediately and pick through them and have been since the early days of Oprah. What if we taught boys that there is a time and a place for feeling and emotion but equally start to accept masculinity for what it is capable of rather than projecting it as toxic because boys don’t always immediately fall apart and cry?
Great roundup Ed, not least for the follow-on to the Bond review. But what caught my eye as Canadian subscriber was your intent to take a look at us in the context of our engagement in the woke culture wars. Some thoughts:
1) you note our early and enthusiastic joining in the ‘60s revolution -- this in large part probably can be explained by the massive cultural swing that was the Quiet Revolution in Québec that rippled throughout the rest of the country (for a variety of reasons too complex to begin to describe here);
2) the Helen Andrews article to which you link, on the Interior Department report on US native residential schools, is absolutely fascinating in its comparison of the American, Australian and Canadian experiences. I had always sensed that our woke suffer from “slavery envy” (because despite their attempts to prove otherwise, that “American Original Sin” never really was a factor here) and ergo their headlong grasp to replicate the Australian “Stolen Generations” by conjuring the Residential School experience as our form of cultural genocide original sin. Her take on the Truth and Reconciliation Commission feeding a vast indigenous victimhood industry is germane and an abject lesson the US adopting “residential school envy”;
3) you could.benefit from examining the SubStack “The Real Story” run by Terry Glavin, in which he also addresses occasionally these very issues; and finally,
4) another indispensable source would be the recently published book “The 1867 Project: Why Canada Should be Cherished -- and Not Cancelled” (Ed. Mark Milke), which tackles the whole range of culture War issues at play over here.
Thanks for the Louise Perry essay, she has given me a lot to think about. I've now subscribed to her substack, so will need to find time to squeeze you both in each week.
What do you make of the linking of wokeness with Post-Protestantism? Ireland is even woker than the rest of the Anglosphere, and in continental Europe the government in Spain seems to have implemented some of the most progressive policies. Both Post-Catholic countries. It also can only refer to Episcopalianism and other moderate types of protestantism. The other variants are probably more anti-woke.
“When Tories say they don’t want an American-style culture war, what they really mean is ‘where are the surrender papers?”
I hesitate to write what follows, since it makes me seem more reactionary than I actually am, and since I think “culture war” is an unhelpful metaphor at the best of times. There’s nothing wrong with intense debate and sharply conflicting opinions about the kind of society we want to live in, and we would do well to defuse the rhetoric by starting to talk about “the culture argument” or “the culture debate”.
But if we are going use the terminology of warfare, why do we never hear conservatives pointing out that the culture war has been waged for sixty years, very successfully, by the liberal left, and that it's the conservative response which is a defensive one? Guardian journalists or Blairite politicians will accuse a conservative of “starting” a culture war when he challenges any of the social transformations that left-liberal politics has sponsored and promoted since the 1960s; they never imagine themselves having waged a culture war in order to implement those changes in the first place. In other words, it's a piece of rhetoric that helps to delegitimise any suggestion that any of these changes should be reversed.
This is rather like the Russians annexing Crimea and the Donbass, and then accusing the Ukrainians of aggression for wanting to recover them.
I have been working on a piece to this effect so good to know I’m not the only one thinking this.
There was a long article on Spiked by Frank Furedi making this very point.
I think N.S. Lyons covered this well already:
https://theupheaval.substack.com/p/its-not-hypocrisy-youre-just-powerless
Wonderfully stated, Basil. I have been pounding my fist on this point over here in America for years now. It is the progressives who initiate the culture battles in classrooms and workplaces; it is the conservatives who respond. Yet, because the Left controls our cultural discourse, they get to control the narrative and brand conservatives as culture warriors and bigots.
Please do write aboot Canada!!!!!
About wokeism in the UK: on the other hand, you are also a proud citizen of the land known to uppity women everywhere as Terf Island! Among other things I hope to read about someday, surely a book will eventually be written about why it was in England that women were first able to successfully organize the pushback against gender ideology. It's not all bending the knee to American culture war nonsense over there, at all at all.
tooting my own horn in re: writing about Canada
https://compactmag.com/article/canada-s-convenient-victims
Thank you for providing this link. Excellent article, Professor!
thank you! :)
This reply to Douthat’s article summed it up nicely for me:
MtnFrost
Boulder CO
Let's be clear - republicans are conservatives, and conservatives have been on the wrong side of every issue including the founding of our country, when the conservatives sided with England. Slavery, suffrage, Civil Rights, interracial marriage, gay marriage, siding with Russia over Ukraine. Forced birth.
Woke is Christ and the teachings of every major religion. Every great president we've ever had, has been a liberal progressive. Mt Rushmore? All liberal progressives. You need to understand that your views and beliefs are wrong, and represent everything evil in the world.
Absolutely extraordinary.
Douthat's point about American wokery spreading
1- I think he is ignoring Latin America. Burkle and Millei are one side of the culture war there. Like the uncontacted tribes of the Amazon the Woke are definetly there...
2- It is no where so true as the Republic of Ireland. One of the most normie people I follow on Twitter was talking about the decline of the Irish Naval service.- Irish state will not raise it's sailors wages so they don't reenlist or people will not join. Consequence is Ireland has fewer ships for fisheries protection- anti drug and weapons smuggling. Search and rescue. Net result is that Ireland is now more dependent on the UK and the EU then it was 5 years ago. My Pal's comment was that the current govenment of Ireland doesn't see itself as a Soverign State rather a Home Rule Administration-
2a- This is somewhat the same problem as the Body Count question. A British or Irish or Canadian conservative needs to be willing to wrap themselves in the flag and condemn the Yankee menace
Orban is able to blame Brussels when he really often means Hollywood and Wall Street
“Gaulish or Dacian chieftains donning togas and trading clumsy Latin epithets.”
Wouldn't Alcuin teaching the Franks proper Latin be a better example? :)
Ha! I've had "body count" muted on Twitter for about six months now I think.
Not sure what’s wrong with ‘don’t ask, don’t tell’
Ed West, a piece of advice:
Do not stop writing and enjoy every minute you're allowed.
"if you’re a Twitter user, muting ‘body count’ will improve your experience infinitely." But you'll also miss out on news about Ice T's rap/metal crossover project.
What if we didn’t keep navel gazing and accepted reality. It’s fine to write emotions out of our systems or seek a hug in a crisis. Or recognise moments of deep pain and acknowledge them. But why do we have to insist that emotion rules every aspect of our lives. Caitlin is wrong. We already inhabit a world where the whole world is invited to share their feelings immediately and pick through them and have been since the early days of Oprah. What if we taught boys that there is a time and a place for feeling and emotion but equally start to accept masculinity for what it is capable of rather than projecting it as toxic because boys don’t always immediately fall apart and cry?
Great roundup Ed, not least for the follow-on to the Bond review. But what caught my eye as Canadian subscriber was your intent to take a look at us in the context of our engagement in the woke culture wars. Some thoughts:
1) you note our early and enthusiastic joining in the ‘60s revolution -- this in large part probably can be explained by the massive cultural swing that was the Quiet Revolution in Québec that rippled throughout the rest of the country (for a variety of reasons too complex to begin to describe here);
2) the Helen Andrews article to which you link, on the Interior Department report on US native residential schools, is absolutely fascinating in its comparison of the American, Australian and Canadian experiences. I had always sensed that our woke suffer from “slavery envy” (because despite their attempts to prove otherwise, that “American Original Sin” never really was a factor here) and ergo their headlong grasp to replicate the Australian “Stolen Generations” by conjuring the Residential School experience as our form of cultural genocide original sin. Her take on the Truth and Reconciliation Commission feeding a vast indigenous victimhood industry is germane and an abject lesson the US adopting “residential school envy”;
3) you could.benefit from examining the SubStack “The Real Story” run by Terry Glavin, in which he also addresses occasionally these very issues; and finally,
4) another indispensable source would be the recently published book “The 1867 Project: Why Canada Should be Cherished -- and Not Cancelled” (Ed. Mark Milke), which tackles the whole range of culture War issues at play over here.
Thanks for the Louise Perry essay, she has given me a lot to think about. I've now subscribed to her substack, so will need to find time to squeeze you both in each week.
What do you make of the linking of wokeness with Post-Protestantism? Ireland is even woker than the rest of the Anglosphere, and in continental Europe the government in Spain seems to have implemented some of the most progressive policies. Both Post-Catholic countries. It also can only refer to Episcopalianism and other moderate types of protestantism. The other variants are probably more anti-woke.
I’ve long since left Twitter. It’s full of narcissists left and right clobbering one another endlessly and achieving absolutely fuck all
I'm really excited about the salons! Thanks for your columns, among the highlights of my week.
ah thanks so much. That's extremely kind.
This was pleasant. Thank you, Ed.
Ed. It just strikes me that muting the word bodycount, is the reason why the culture war is being lost.
You cannot cure the body politic, sometimes without examining the terrible weeping sores on the buttocks.
Not sure I want to examine any weeping buttock sores.
Boris Johnson as someone who had ‘a real reluctance to alienate people he might be having dinner with’.
To win the culture war. Some people are going to lose. Some awful people will win.