I suspect that the 'Go back to Poland' chant isn't a function of mistaken arithmetic; I'd class it with the chants of 'To the ovens' and 'Hitler was right'. The odd thing is that the same people who imply that there needs to be a new Shoah will also insist that the original one never happened, or if it did, the numbers involved were in the thousands rather than the millions. Antisemitism is horribly fascinating.
I'm not sure. Aren't Holocaust deniers and 'Hitler was righters' usually right wing? And aren't the anti-semites chanting 'Go back to Poland' at pro-Palestine marches generally progressive lefties?
generally, but there are left-wing anti-Semites too. One main difference is that modern left-wing anti-Semitism is also mixed with anti-white racism, which also explains why so many people gleefully talk about skin cancer rates among Israelis.
Yes, I know there are left wing anti-semites because years ago I read a very good piece by...someone, who spelt out the long history of left anti-Semitism. No, the only bit I disagreed with was this:
'The odd thing is that the same people who imply that there needs to be a new Shoah will also insist that the original one never happened'.
The cheerleaders for a new Shoah are generally leftists, the Holocaust deniers not.
Historically, you're absolutely correct. And certainly the most toxic Holocaust deniers are on the Right. But Arabs don't fit the two-dimensional categorisation of Left v. Right, which (as I'm sure you know) derives from the political fall-out from the French Revolution. Their anti-Semitism has nothing to do with Left or Right, and goes much further back. The default attitude among Palestinians moves between Holocaust denial and Holocaust justification, and while those two beliefs are logically incompatible, they do co-exist and indeed mingle in the same community. This has spread to the pro-Palestinian protestors - among whom are, of course, many people of Arab heritage. What's happening now is that the historical anti-Semitism of Left and Right (which, as you imply, derives from different sources) is now combining with the traditional anti-Semitism of Islam to form a lethal mixture - something that can now be viewed on our streets and on the campus of our universities.
I had forgotten about Arabs and thought you were referring to Holocaust denying progressive liberals. Now I understand. The latter generally try to maintain a consistent (though horrid) worldview.
Strangely it had never occurred to me that the Left v. Right distinction derives from the French Revolution, though maybe I was dimly aware that the terms themselves do. Prior to 1789, did that distinction not exist or was it simply called by some other name?
Well, different political outlooks have always existed, of course, but the nomenclature dates from 1789. Wikipedia is reasonably reliable, but the article is lengthy, so here's a much shorter explanation: https://time.com/5673239/left-right-politics-origins/
Thanks Ed. On the Rwanda community point, may i crowbar in a little story? i recently experienced a little chaos and spontaneous order while travelling through the challenged Dubai airport transfer (or rather missed connection) zone. (i promise that's my last Hayekian reference.)
It involved about 2-300 tired, hungry and thirsty passengers, and only 3 emirates staff on the desk, resulting (for me) in a straight 12+ hour standing queue for new flights. (When i got my boarding pass, the queue had fully filled up again behind me). If you've been through this then perhaps you know the rest. But i hadn't so I found it very interesting.
As my back started to hurt and i thought about food, coffee and rest i wondered off to find nothing available within the transfer zone, and i returned to the back of the queue which had not moved. I noticed men with family passports in hand who hadn't done that. I settled in for the wait. I couldn't get on the internet so distraction was going to be difficult. I had, appropriately enough, War and Peace on my kindle and plenty to get through. A silver lining. An hour a later, i moved forward a foot, the desk obscured by a sea of people. All quiet for now.
The more extroverted folks started talking to each other. I felt eyes on me but avoided anyone's gaze as long as i could. After about 3 or 4 hours or so, just as the heat and hunger started to affect us someone pushed back through the line with the first boarding pass, causing me to knock over a man sat on a box behind me. Sweating profusely and dazed, he was in a bad way. i pulled out some duty free chocolate and all he could do was jab a finger at the packet, from which m'n'm's flowed into his hands. a diabetic lady nearby came over to check his blood sugar which was apparently high. within an hour he was talking again and standing up. the staff had no idea and really no one to help, until later on. i felt useful in a way i hadn't before. meanwhile i needed to cancel a work appointment so i borrowed the chaps email account to do so. Thus I loosened up with the stranger chat and joined the crowd somewhat.
Every so often a new flight load of passengers arrived, and tensions rose. Some people, variously entitled, aggressive, disbelieving, sneaky, or greedy for the front of the queue entered our space between the stanchions. And of course people with 6 hours queueing under their belt were having none of it. And I didn't see a single policeman or security guard around us, and was curious what was going to happen next, a bit like when i got covid the first time. One of us, a Canadian Punjabi, a head taller than me, with a voice like Thor and whose back was pretty much an inverted equilateral triangle wasted no time acting as resistance to these people. He vocally policed the entire day and night as if he were a mountie on a horse, which he kind of was. Chivalrous to older women being pushed around, and somehow memorising the general queue order, he enforced it mostly using shame, and if that failed he talked about Ju-Jitsu. By the levels of stress around us, clearly this could have gone very wrong but I guess Ju-Jitsu teaches as much in the art of war as it does about breaking stuff. After he put people in their place he joked with them to offer an olive branch. And this sense of renewed order (and perhaps a monopoly of...something) calmed everyone down. Each time this repeated, we all watched to see if he was going to lose a battle of wits, or even overstep the mark, but it didn't happen. I had never seen anything like this situation before.
Did you know that on the Kuala Lumpur underground platform, when the train doors open, people waiting form a straight queue backwards across the platform? You would never get that in London, and i thought we invented the idea. maybe the platforms were deeper over there.
Behind me, a humorous Mancunian of asian descent quietly mentioned that cultural stereotypes were on display throughout. As a quiet Englishman thankful for the order, i couldn't disagree. He had his whole family nearby and had been stuck for 2 days. The patience and attitude of some people is impressive. His job was as one of the jokers in the queue. that definitely helped us all as laughter rippled across the crowd as we got close enough to the desk to imagine the cold touch on our elbows.
I reached the desk at 2am, 3 abreast, and spent about an hour there. The one lady serving us had been working very hard, continuously for hours, booking flights and also hotels, which were now full. everyone made sure they vacated the space to the next person. This tacit but unmistakable order was fascinating at first to watch develop, and then became normal and unsurprising. While waiting at the desk, a Gambian tried opening a conversation with me on football, of which i know nothing, but i impressed him with a geeky knowledge of his country's music. he had a 4 day wait till a flight to Konakry in Guinea. i was given a flight for Heathrow at 7am. The luck of the draw. I put my hand on the Gambian's shoulder and said good luck, guiltily. "See you in Gambia". I only wish I could have thanked the lady on behalf of everyone, not just me. But she was busy.
As i turned away with my boarding pass I said goodbye to those i spoke to. Something crazy had happened there. Some had helped, some had needed help, some had hindered, and the English had queued (and helped). As i approached security the stanchions seemed like sides of race track as i walked freely through them, my back thanking me for the calming left - right pulsing of my tired muscles. Perspective is a wonderful thing.
Of course, compared to many things going on in the world both individually and beyond, it was nothing, a middle class problem, perhaps. I had it easy, no dependents, health issues. But with little to no outside enforcement, people rallied to keep the peace, get the job done (of queueing!), and did what they could to make it easier. Even I got shy people talking to me. Standing for 12 hours in that heat and crowd was exhausting, painful and stressful. But i'm glad i experienced it and wouldn't take it back. Do these situations always balance like this? Thanks for reading if you got this far!
Sorry about the late reply, but anyway that's interesting because it's pretty alien to me (Appalachian Ohio kid) but I absolutely loved it. There were some things in it that were broadly relatable (the "Rik" character had and has disturbingly similar parallels in American society, especially in the horrible university town where I had to go to secondary school) but other than that it might as well have taken place on a different planet from the one I'm from.
It actually has a lot of American fans -- MTV aired it around 1987 and that's where I and many others here found out about it.
I'm guessing the 3-hour communal work in Rwanda is not principally to get stuff done but rather to engender a love of, and pride in, the community and country. But I suspect it only works the other way round i.e. loving your community/country makes you want to put in 3 hours' volunteer work.
Hmmm, I would not suppose Taliban was welcomed by the "youth", certainly not the educated class. If anyone I thought would be disaffected adults held to the old ways (more of a MAGA equivalent there...)
I suspect that the 'Go back to Poland' chant isn't a function of mistaken arithmetic; I'd class it with the chants of 'To the ovens' and 'Hitler was right'. The odd thing is that the same people who imply that there needs to be a new Shoah will also insist that the original one never happened, or if it did, the numbers involved were in the thousands rather than the millions. Antisemitism is horribly fascinating.
I'm not sure. Aren't Holocaust deniers and 'Hitler was righters' usually right wing? And aren't the anti-semites chanting 'Go back to Poland' at pro-Palestine marches generally progressive lefties?
generally, but there are left-wing anti-Semites too. One main difference is that modern left-wing anti-Semitism is also mixed with anti-white racism, which also explains why so many people gleefully talk about skin cancer rates among Israelis.
Yes, I know there are left wing anti-semites because years ago I read a very good piece by...someone, who spelt out the long history of left anti-Semitism. No, the only bit I disagreed with was this:
'The odd thing is that the same people who imply that there needs to be a new Shoah will also insist that the original one never happened'.
The cheerleaders for a new Shoah are generally leftists, the Holocaust deniers not.
Historically, you're absolutely correct. And certainly the most toxic Holocaust deniers are on the Right. But Arabs don't fit the two-dimensional categorisation of Left v. Right, which (as I'm sure you know) derives from the political fall-out from the French Revolution. Their anti-Semitism has nothing to do with Left or Right, and goes much further back. The default attitude among Palestinians moves between Holocaust denial and Holocaust justification, and while those two beliefs are logically incompatible, they do co-exist and indeed mingle in the same community. This has spread to the pro-Palestinian protestors - among whom are, of course, many people of Arab heritage. What's happening now is that the historical anti-Semitism of Left and Right (which, as you imply, derives from different sources) is now combining with the traditional anti-Semitism of Islam to form a lethal mixture - something that can now be viewed on our streets and on the campus of our universities.
I had forgotten about Arabs and thought you were referring to Holocaust denying progressive liberals. Now I understand. The latter generally try to maintain a consistent (though horrid) worldview.
Strangely it had never occurred to me that the Left v. Right distinction derives from the French Revolution, though maybe I was dimly aware that the terms themselves do. Prior to 1789, did that distinction not exist or was it simply called by some other name?
Well, different political outlooks have always existed, of course, but the nomenclature dates from 1789. Wikipedia is reasonably reliable, but the article is lengthy, so here's a much shorter explanation: https://time.com/5673239/left-right-politics-origins/
Thanks Ed. On the Rwanda community point, may i crowbar in a little story? i recently experienced a little chaos and spontaneous order while travelling through the challenged Dubai airport transfer (or rather missed connection) zone. (i promise that's my last Hayekian reference.)
It involved about 2-300 tired, hungry and thirsty passengers, and only 3 emirates staff on the desk, resulting (for me) in a straight 12+ hour standing queue for new flights. (When i got my boarding pass, the queue had fully filled up again behind me). If you've been through this then perhaps you know the rest. But i hadn't so I found it very interesting.
As my back started to hurt and i thought about food, coffee and rest i wondered off to find nothing available within the transfer zone, and i returned to the back of the queue which had not moved. I noticed men with family passports in hand who hadn't done that. I settled in for the wait. I couldn't get on the internet so distraction was going to be difficult. I had, appropriately enough, War and Peace on my kindle and plenty to get through. A silver lining. An hour a later, i moved forward a foot, the desk obscured by a sea of people. All quiet for now.
The more extroverted folks started talking to each other. I felt eyes on me but avoided anyone's gaze as long as i could. After about 3 or 4 hours or so, just as the heat and hunger started to affect us someone pushed back through the line with the first boarding pass, causing me to knock over a man sat on a box behind me. Sweating profusely and dazed, he was in a bad way. i pulled out some duty free chocolate and all he could do was jab a finger at the packet, from which m'n'm's flowed into his hands. a diabetic lady nearby came over to check his blood sugar which was apparently high. within an hour he was talking again and standing up. the staff had no idea and really no one to help, until later on. i felt useful in a way i hadn't before. meanwhile i needed to cancel a work appointment so i borrowed the chaps email account to do so. Thus I loosened up with the stranger chat and joined the crowd somewhat.
Every so often a new flight load of passengers arrived, and tensions rose. Some people, variously entitled, aggressive, disbelieving, sneaky, or greedy for the front of the queue entered our space between the stanchions. And of course people with 6 hours queueing under their belt were having none of it. And I didn't see a single policeman or security guard around us, and was curious what was going to happen next, a bit like when i got covid the first time. One of us, a Canadian Punjabi, a head taller than me, with a voice like Thor and whose back was pretty much an inverted equilateral triangle wasted no time acting as resistance to these people. He vocally policed the entire day and night as if he were a mountie on a horse, which he kind of was. Chivalrous to older women being pushed around, and somehow memorising the general queue order, he enforced it mostly using shame, and if that failed he talked about Ju-Jitsu. By the levels of stress around us, clearly this could have gone very wrong but I guess Ju-Jitsu teaches as much in the art of war as it does about breaking stuff. After he put people in their place he joked with them to offer an olive branch. And this sense of renewed order (and perhaps a monopoly of...something) calmed everyone down. Each time this repeated, we all watched to see if he was going to lose a battle of wits, or even overstep the mark, but it didn't happen. I had never seen anything like this situation before.
Did you know that on the Kuala Lumpur underground platform, when the train doors open, people waiting form a straight queue backwards across the platform? You would never get that in London, and i thought we invented the idea. maybe the platforms were deeper over there.
Behind me, a humorous Mancunian of asian descent quietly mentioned that cultural stereotypes were on display throughout. As a quiet Englishman thankful for the order, i couldn't disagree. He had his whole family nearby and had been stuck for 2 days. The patience and attitude of some people is impressive. His job was as one of the jokers in the queue. that definitely helped us all as laughter rippled across the crowd as we got close enough to the desk to imagine the cold touch on our elbows.
I reached the desk at 2am, 3 abreast, and spent about an hour there. The one lady serving us had been working very hard, continuously for hours, booking flights and also hotels, which were now full. everyone made sure they vacated the space to the next person. This tacit but unmistakable order was fascinating at first to watch develop, and then became normal and unsurprising. While waiting at the desk, a Gambian tried opening a conversation with me on football, of which i know nothing, but i impressed him with a geeky knowledge of his country's music. he had a 4 day wait till a flight to Konakry in Guinea. i was given a flight for Heathrow at 7am. The luck of the draw. I put my hand on the Gambian's shoulder and said good luck, guiltily. "See you in Gambia". I only wish I could have thanked the lady on behalf of everyone, not just me. But she was busy.
As i turned away with my boarding pass I said goodbye to those i spoke to. Something crazy had happened there. Some had helped, some had needed help, some had hindered, and the English had queued (and helped). As i approached security the stanchions seemed like sides of race track as i walked freely through them, my back thanking me for the calming left - right pulsing of my tired muscles. Perspective is a wonderful thing.
Of course, compared to many things going on in the world both individually and beyond, it was nothing, a middle class problem, perhaps. I had it easy, no dependents, health issues. But with little to no outside enforcement, people rallied to keep the peace, get the job done (of queueing!), and did what they could to make it easier. Even I got shy people talking to me. Standing for 12 hours in that heat and crowd was exhausting, painful and stressful. But i'm glad i experienced it and wouldn't take it back. Do these situations always balance like this? Thanks for reading if you got this far!
This was delightful to read
that's lovely, thanks Mike!
Thanks, Ed!
Appreciated the Young Ones reference. There's no comedy like that being made in the UK now, right? Went extinct around 2010, yes?
It was very of its time. I tried it on my kids and while they liked Blackadder and loved Red Dwarf, the Young Ones just baffled them.
Sorry about the late reply, but anyway that's interesting because it's pretty alien to me (Appalachian Ohio kid) but I absolutely loved it. There were some things in it that were broadly relatable (the "Rik" character had and has disturbingly similar parallels in American society, especially in the horrible university town where I had to go to secondary school) but other than that it might as well have taken place on a different planet from the one I'm from.
It actually has a lot of American fans -- MTV aired it around 1987 and that's where I and many others here found out about it.
I'm guessing the 3-hour communal work in Rwanda is not principally to get stuff done but rather to engender a love of, and pride in, the community and country. But I suspect it only works the other way round i.e. loving your community/country makes you want to put in 3 hours' volunteer work.
Did Taliban have support of youths when they weee swept into power?
I imagine so although I don’t like YouGov etc are very active there.
Hmmm, I would not suppose Taliban was welcomed by the "youth", certainly not the educated class. If anyone I thought would be disaffected adults held to the old ways (more of a MAGA equivalent there...)
I thought they came out of the Pashtun highlands, not the more civilized urban culture of Kabul.