"Violet Bonham-Carter, daughter of Great War leader H.H. Asquith, marched into 10 Downing Street and demanded to speak to Churchill about the bombing of the city where she had attended finishing school." A sentence which makes me want to join Class War.
There's a story that Napoleon, in a fit of serious pique, decided to destroy St Basil's Cathedral in Moscow as he was forced to retreat. The officer he detailed to get this done flat out disobeyed. Years later Stalin was also was considering dynamiting the cathedral but his architect argued with him -- argued with Stalin!-- and succeeded in dissuading him.
I don't think it's reprehensible to argue against destroying gorgeous old archiitecture.
It’s fascinating how differently the bombing of Dresden is viewed in Germany and the UK. In Germany, the official line is that it was totally justified—after all, Dresden had train tracks and some war-related factories, so fair game. Any critic or, gasp, comparison to war crimes is *strictly* off-limits, because acknowledging German civilian suffering might lead to the wrong kind of nostalgia.
Meanwhile, in the UK, the whole thing is viewed as possibly a bit much, maybe even a... war crime? Churchill himself later called it an ‘unnecessary destruction,’ and British historians have spilled much ink agonizing over whether torching a city full of refugees really helped the war effort. Books like Slaughterhouse-Five turned it into a symbol of senseless brutality, so ironically, Brits seem to feel worse about it than Germans do.
And then there’s the real fun at the anniversary each year. For decades, neo-Nazis tried to hijack the commemoration by marching through Dresden, painting the city as a symbol of German victimhood while conveniently forgetting why WWII happened in the first place. At their peak, around 6,000 of them showed up in 2005.
After that, the city of Dresden got sick of this nonsense and took back the commemoration, turning it into something actually meaningful. Now, official events focus on peace, remembrance, and reconciliation, featuring things like human chains and cultural ceremonies. And the neo-Nazi marches are now vastly outnumbered by counter-protests and have been losing steam.
History debates can be exhausting, so let’s make it simple: If you’ve ever wanted to see the words ‘Bomber Harris do it again’ written across a pair of German breasts, today’s your lucky day.
Exactly ten years ago, an activist in Dresden decided that the best way to fight far-right extremism was to celebrate the guy who firebombed the city. Because nothing says ‘progress’ like fantasizing about WWII destruction.
Click the link below—not for any serious historical insight, but for the sheer, bizarre, once-in-a-lifetime spectacle of a naked anti-fascist tribute to British strategic bombing. Cheers!
I forgot to add that your fascinating piece about Vietnam reminded me of this. Make of this what you want. In fact, I actually *hope* that you make of it *something*. I hope your planned trip to Germany will materialize & look forward to new insights.
"The communists in eastern Europe may have been hostile to symbols of the past, but they were hardly less destructive of architecture than most western governments; in many ways they better preserved them."
I may have misunderstood, but should 'hardly less destructive' omit 'hardly'? The point seems to be that our lot were worse than the Communists when it came to post-war architecture, in which case you need a single rather than a double negative.
Not a big one……..just a 6hr cruise on a paddle-steamer to Bad Schandau, and then two trains to Prague. Probably the best day of our fortnight in Deutschland and environs.
BTW - Katya Hoyer’s piece on Dresden ’45 today is very good.
"If so, the Monument to the Battle of the Nations - Völkerschlachtdenkmal - is astonishing." Indeed - one of the few times the adjective Wagnerian can be appropriately used.
Lived nearby for a couple years and was both fascinated and disturbed by the place. I'm rather a fan of Wagner but the Denkmal is, I think, rather more a vulgar Wilhelmine fantasy than expression of the German heroic legend. The Nazis loved it, of course.
To be honest, I'm surprised the DDR didn't knock it down and build a block of flats. I guess they liked it too.
And yet, if one ventures inside, there's something about the place. Oh dear.
I went to Dresden a few years ago and was impressed with the restoration of the centre, although the outskirts of the city are somewhat starkly bleak, as are many East German cities such as Leipzig and Potsdam.
Our little part of the human race tried that in the 1930s. It did not work out entirely well for ourselves or for a large chunk of humanity. Weakness on the part of those of us who hate war merely emboldens those who love it.
Today, I fear we have condemned ourselves to repeat those errors. I can foresee Trump, in the not too distant future, returning home from Moscow with a signed paper in his hand, declaring 'Peace in our time.'
He seems intent on ending nuclear arms. I wonder why he hasn't targeted germ and chemical war, or even warfare itself. Christians seem okay with bombing civilians, as long as they're Nazis, Japanese, Commies, or Muslims. The other religion of peace, Islam, doesn't seem to mind bombing civilians.
I think the bombing of cities full of civilians is a pretty modern phenomenon. A big shift really from armies meeting in the field. Shameful of course, but also weak on a way. Not seen until WWII IMO.
Whenever I see these pictures of the rebuilding in Dresden I am always a little underwhelmed. It's obviously better than most post war rebuilding efforts (Rotterdam is one of the worst), but we just don't seem to have the knack any more.
They look nice up close, but I think only time will tell with these buildings. My instinctive impression is that the more that these reconstructions take place, the better people will get at them. Inshallah there will be lots of good, trained German craftsmen we can hire when our time comes.
"Violet Bonham-Carter, daughter of Great War leader H.H. Asquith, marched into 10 Downing Street and demanded to speak to Churchill about the bombing of the city where she had attended finishing school." A sentence which makes me want to join Class War.
Just imagine what she would be like today. Black square for George Floyd and throwing orange paint at art works.
There's a story that Napoleon, in a fit of serious pique, decided to destroy St Basil's Cathedral in Moscow as he was forced to retreat. The officer he detailed to get this done flat out disobeyed. Years later Stalin was also was considering dynamiting the cathedral but his architect argued with him -- argued with Stalin!-- and succeeded in dissuading him.
I don't think it's reprehensible to argue against destroying gorgeous old archiitecture.
It’s fascinating how differently the bombing of Dresden is viewed in Germany and the UK. In Germany, the official line is that it was totally justified—after all, Dresden had train tracks and some war-related factories, so fair game. Any critic or, gasp, comparison to war crimes is *strictly* off-limits, because acknowledging German civilian suffering might lead to the wrong kind of nostalgia.
Meanwhile, in the UK, the whole thing is viewed as possibly a bit much, maybe even a... war crime? Churchill himself later called it an ‘unnecessary destruction,’ and British historians have spilled much ink agonizing over whether torching a city full of refugees really helped the war effort. Books like Slaughterhouse-Five turned it into a symbol of senseless brutality, so ironically, Brits seem to feel worse about it than Germans do.
And then there’s the real fun at the anniversary each year. For decades, neo-Nazis tried to hijack the commemoration by marching through Dresden, painting the city as a symbol of German victimhood while conveniently forgetting why WWII happened in the first place. At their peak, around 6,000 of them showed up in 2005.
After that, the city of Dresden got sick of this nonsense and took back the commemoration, turning it into something actually meaningful. Now, official events focus on peace, remembrance, and reconciliation, featuring things like human chains and cultural ceremonies. And the neo-Nazi marches are now vastly outnumbered by counter-protests and have been losing steam.
History debates can be exhausting, so let’s make it simple: If you’ve ever wanted to see the words ‘Bomber Harris do it again’ written across a pair of German breasts, today’s your lucky day.
Exactly ten years ago, an activist in Dresden decided that the best way to fight far-right extremism was to celebrate the guy who firebombed the city. Because nothing says ‘progress’ like fantasizing about WWII destruction.
Click the link below—not for any serious historical insight, but for the sheer, bizarre, once-in-a-lifetime spectacle of a naked anti-fascist tribute to British strategic bombing. Cheers!
https://www.focus.de/politik/deutschland/bomber-harris-do-it-again-dieser-nackt-protest-gegen-pegida-schockt-dresden_id_4420184.html
I think Betjemann said it better...
Bit disappointed in the pic, if I’m honest. Was expecting a pair of Zeppelins!
:-)
I forgot to add that your fascinating piece about Vietnam reminded me of this. Make of this what you want. In fact, I actually *hope* that you make of it *something*. I hope your planned trip to Germany will materialize & look forward to new insights.
thank you. Think we're still going. have actually made a list of dinky German towns I want to visit. Bamberg and Rothenberg are top of the list
"The communists in eastern Europe may have been hostile to symbols of the past, but they were hardly less destructive of architecture than most western governments; in many ways they better preserved them."
I may have misunderstood, but should 'hardly less destructive' omit 'hardly'? The point seems to be that our lot were worse than the Communists when it came to post-war architecture, in which case you need a single rather than a double negative.
good point. I meant MORE
Nice piece - useful information, TY.
Was there last August - didn’t stay long, was catching a boat down the Elbe to Czecho - the city centre and river-front are lovely.
Will go back.
Are you going to Leipzig? If so, the Monument to the Battle of the Nations - Völkerschlachtdenkmal - is astonishing.
I'm back in London now!
Would love to take a big river cruise along the Elbe although the night train from Brussels also sounds great.
We're planning to holiday in southern Germany this summer although the repeatedly upsetting news is hardly drawing us in.
Not a big one……..just a 6hr cruise on a paddle-steamer to Bad Schandau, and then two trains to Prague. Probably the best day of our fortnight in Deutschland and environs.
BTW - Katya Hoyer’s piece on Dresden ’45 today is very good.
"If so, the Monument to the Battle of the Nations - Völkerschlachtdenkmal - is astonishing." Indeed - one of the few times the adjective Wagnerian can be appropriately used.
Lived nearby for a couple years and was both fascinated and disturbed by the place. I'm rather a fan of Wagner but the Denkmal is, I think, rather more a vulgar Wilhelmine fantasy than expression of the German heroic legend. The Nazis loved it, of course.
To be honest, I'm surprised the DDR didn't knock it down and build a block of flats. I guess they liked it too.
And yet, if one ventures inside, there's something about the place. Oh dear.
I went to Dresden a few years ago and was impressed with the restoration of the centre, although the outskirts of the city are somewhat starkly bleak, as are many East German cities such as Leipzig and Potsdam.
One thing that is a shame is that I have not heard of any plans to rebuild the Sophienkirche: https://andthenface2face.wordpress.com/2013/06/15/the-sophienkirche-from-the-zwinger-courtyard-dresden-c-1935/
I presume it's on their minds, although churches must be more expensive than housing and obviously less profitable.
Some of the housing estates nearby are very bleak it's true.
One would think that such destruction would force us to abandon war as a political tool. But, no. It goes on and on and on.......
Us?
The human race.
Our little part of the human race tried that in the 1930s. It did not work out entirely well for ourselves or for a large chunk of humanity. Weakness on the part of those of us who hate war merely emboldens those who love it.
Today, I fear we have condemned ourselves to repeat those errors. I can foresee Trump, in the not too distant future, returning home from Moscow with a signed paper in his hand, declaring 'Peace in our time.'
He seems intent on ending nuclear arms. I wonder why he hasn't targeted germ and chemical war, or even warfare itself. Christians seem okay with bombing civilians, as long as they're Nazis, Japanese, Commies, or Muslims. The other religion of peace, Islam, doesn't seem to mind bombing civilians.
I think the bombing of cities full of civilians is a pretty modern phenomenon. A big shift really from armies meeting in the field. Shameful of course, but also weak on a way. Not seen until WWII IMO.
Whenever I see these pictures of the rebuilding in Dresden I am always a little underwhelmed. It's obviously better than most post war rebuilding efforts (Rotterdam is one of the worst), but we just don't seem to have the knack any more.
They look nice up close, but I think only time will tell with these buildings. My instinctive impression is that the more that these reconstructions take place, the better people will get at them. Inshallah there will be lots of good, trained German craftsmen we can hire when our time comes.