French is relatively easy to take to the level of basic + communication. It is very accessible to English speakers as it uses SVO as its basic structure and has few meaningful inflections in the way that German or, way more difficult, Slavic languages have (congratulations to your father, Serbo-Croat is tough). Ok, there are genders, reflexive verbs etc but that’s manageable and structurally it’s hard to think of a language closer to English (other than maybe American English) l.
I think our lack of success more to do with attitude than inherent difficulty. We don’t really make a major effort to learn in school as it’s not perceived as useful, and we do still have an attitude problem with our French cousins. And then there’s a distinct lack of intensity. Learning a language at any age as an abstract exercise (ie not in a live environment) is a difficult task that require a lot of time and effort. Our 3 or 4 periods a week just aren’t enough.
It’s also a myth that kids are language sponges. They may - likely do - pick them up faster in a playground environment but in an academic setting adults will learn faster because adults have paradigms for learning - that is that by the time you’ve reached adulthood you’re likely to know how you best learn, having sat innumerable exams, and can adapt your approach to the subject. Children don’t know how they learn and therefore can’t do that. They need constant repetition or, other than in exceptional cases, will never really learn.
"Language is extremely complex. Yet very young children - before the age of five - already know most of the intricate system that comprises the grammar of a language. Before they can add 2+2, children are conjoining sentences, asking questions, using appropriate pronouns, negating sentences, forming relative clauses and inflecting verbs and nouns, and in general have acquired the syntactic, phonological, morphological and semantic rules of the grammar."
Fromkin et al 'An Introduction to Language' p.314.
Note: the work was written in 2007, ie during that 150,000 years or so when pronouns were a linguistic rather than a political issue.
Pretty much my entire time at high school seemed like my parents and their generation saying "we had to suffer this, so will you." A teenage day care centre for generational trauma.
Interestingly, the most useful part of high school was the informal teaching, i.e., when the teachers told us something about theirs lives. I was so much more engaged learning about how adults actually lived their lives than algebra.
As a (freelance) teacher now, I often make time to share an interesting tidbit about life with my students. In fact, some of the best "lessons" I've done is when we'll break off the ostensible lesson topics and simply chat about life for a bit. It's remarkable how the whole class seems to pay attention.
I did French in school pre-GCSE (this would have been mid 90s) but i can’t describe what the teachers were doing as “trying to teach me to speak French”.
Completing worksheets, struggling silently over translations, no explanation of how to practice vocabulary, no opportunities to practice speaking regularly with native or fluent speakers, the terror of having to stand up and say something in front of everyone each lesson don’t strike me in retrospect as what you do if you want someone to *actually learn to speak a language*.
Now having read books like Fluent Forever (strong rec) and having a much better idea how to actually learn to speak a language*, I sometimes think about what those teachers thought they were trying to do... they must have known that very few kids came out of it with any fluency... Somehow they were just going through the motions.
Are schools better at teaching languages these days?
* in one sentence: learn to distinguish unfamiliar sounds first, create your own flashcards and use them, practice with native speaker daily or close to.
Bravo, monsieur West! Wishing you all the best on this learning adventure...I can share from personal experience over a lifetime of 67+ years, the very best way to gain proficiency in another language is through total immersion. Having lived, worked, spent holidays and studied abroad across the globe, you’re in the thick of it all and essentially must learn to communicate with your host country. That’s the reality of it all. It does require some initial bravado and intentional effort to get past the fear factor, but it actually works quite well and in time is great fun...be it the butcher, baker, fishmonger, postman or just any shopkeeper to help build your confidence with conversing. With some time, you venture out to chatting with strangers at cafés, pubs, clubs, pools, etc...and slowly friendships do develop and you’re conversing sports, culture and politics. It’s a strategy that bore boundless quantities of fruit for me over a lifetime. And it still works to this day!
By the by, I still have my prized full collections of Tintin books in French, English, German, Italian, Spanish and Portuguese that I read passionately as a young lad and on occasion whilst on holiday visiting my family’s estate in Normandy where they now reside, might read with a lovely chilled glass of rosé snuggled in a chaise lounge comfortably lost in the garden somewhere...
I have a few Tintin books in French which I find useful.
I have a tutor planned but we haven't booked lessons yet. I plan to do that then at some point take a few weeks (I don't know how realistically I can do this) to immerse myself.
I've also realised that the best way to get better at it is to read history in French, since it's the thing I like most in English.
If I may offer a tip: don't shy away from reading "trash". I mean the kinds of sensational paperbacks by unknown authors whose English equivalents you can buy in Oxfam for practically nothing. They're often very entertaining, and the language is accessible; they're a good bridge between graded readers and 'Madame Bovary'-level stuff.
Listening practice is important too. (Think of all the foreigners with amazing English who don't read much, but who love 'Friends' and 'The Big Bang Theory'.) You've mentioned podcasts; audio books are also a great resource. Much as some of us on the Right resent Amazon, I have to thank Amazon Audible for making getting dressed and washing the dishes infinitely more enjoyable activities than they used to be.
Finally, give it time and try to enjoy the process;) Good luck with it!
Another tip is to lean songs. As part of formal instruction on Spanish before Peace Cprp we had 2 hours/week of learning songs from our guitar-playing teacher. :)
Purchase the remaining books to complete the œuvre...you’ll be glad you did! Be intentional in picking your spot to holiday in France to afford you and your family optimal conversation opportunities...preferably a locale where you can walk everywhere and aren’t too remote. Funny thing is everyone speaks English here nowadays!
At my school (bog standard comprehensive, early to mid 1990s) we did French and the smarter kids did German. Because I was better at German, and it was closer to English, I liked it. I chose it at GCSE, then got called into the head of year's office with three girls; because only four of us wanted to do German, they weren't going to do it at GCSE. I haven't tried to learn a language since.
Still, that D in GCSE Business Studies has come in handy.
You touched on this with your last post, but a major reason why we anglophones aren't great at foreign languages is the global dominance of English, which the Internet has enormously sped up. I was talking a few years ago to a middle-aged English teacher at a French lycée. She said she could see each new cohort of pupils getting better year by year - thanks to the likes of Netflix and social media. So there seems less and less point in learning foreigners' languages when so many of them speak English so bloody well.
This doesn't just affect the native English speakers among us. I used to have a Japanese friend in Germany. She was able to speak German, but I noticed that often, strangers - waiters, hotel staff - would address her in English before she'd opened her mouth. Sometimes people would answer her in English even when she had spoken to them in German. They were guessing (correctly, as it happened) that her command of English was better.
Of course, the "everyone speaks Globish anyway" barrier isn't insurmountable. There are plenty of foreigners out there who are delighted to speak their language with a learner.
I suppose that to learn a foreign language well, with all the time and effort involved, we need a hook, an anchor, something to tie us to that culture. A significant other who speaks the language is ideal. Of course, that's not an option for all of us - and even making "ordinary" friends gets trickier as we get older. But some spark, something about the culture that we love and want to keep returning to - that's indispensable. Perhaps leisurely, history-filled holidays in the south of France, with plenty of wine and Radio Courtoisie playing in the car, could serve as your anchor, Ed!
Brian, I like the way you write. It reminds me of...me. I especially liked the fact you didn't berate German waiters etc. for speaking to your Japanese friend in English. Many people would launch into a tirade along the lines, 'After putting in so much effort to learn German...', apparently unaware that most Japanese people don't speak German and would be relieved to be addressed in a tongue they are more likely to understand. I have lived on and off in Japan for 20 years and am over the moon when someone correctly assumes I don't speak Japanese and addresses me in English. Of course it would be annoying if I answered in fluent Japanese and they still insisted on speaking in English. But that is an annoyance I will never know.
I have been an EFL teacher for 29 years and think I have noticed during that time that English classes work in a similar way to Weight Watchers i.e. you don't actually lose any weight during your weekly visit to Weight Watchers, they merely act as a spur to losing weight during the rest of the week. Without the (in my case) daily lessons, students would soon lose the motivation to keep learning English since the ultimate goal of speaking English well would seem too distant, like an ever-receding horizon. So though there is indeed some learning and practice in my classes (honest to God there is), their real value is in keeping students motivated through their interaction with me and the other students. This is why liking, or God forbid even even admiring, your teacher is quite important. You want him or her to recognise the progress you are making. That YOU see it isn't enough for social animals like us.
So while it's possible to learn a language perfectly well on your own without a teacher or formal classes, you need the motivation to keep you going.
Good for you. I speak only Spanish besides English (the easiest of all possible languages for an English speaker) but still I think it is worth it. If nothing else, it expands your English vocabulary as relatively common words in Spanish (dormir) have high falutin' equivalents (dormer) in English. [French will no doubt do as well.] It also allows you to discover Grimms Law for yourself pei-foot, pluma feather, padre-father, pleno - full, etc. And there are some neat little distinctions esquina - outside corner, rincon - inside corner. And the matahysical mysteries of ser and estar. The parallax may have a short baseline, but it still helps measure the distance to other worlds.
Agreed! Good man. Germanophile here. Never got to do Classics in state school and am taking Latin at evening class aged (well, let’s say older, shall we?) Bonne chance, Viel Glück, Bonam fortunam with your studies! And your children too.
Good luck with the studies. I wish I had been more attentive at school and had the chance to immerse myself in French. Difficult 40 years later when you don’t get to France that often. On the other hand we were taught rigorously, lots of grammar and vocab so can still read the news. The problem for my kids and their peers is that learning a language requires hard work, application and deferred gratitude. At 12 years old you cannot see ‘le point’. All I can suggest that if you get to adulthood and have mastered a language, musical instrument or sporting proficiency, you will stand out from the crowd.
BTW, can you recommend any good French language podcasts?
It's always seemed to me to be basic politeness to at least have a go at learning the language when one visits, (and essential if one lives in) another country. But the question of what we should teach nippers in school is another matter. Why French and German? Neither is much use when going about one's (or the nation's) business in distant shores.
Economic and political logical says, that in addition to comprehending English as an international language, we should be teaching Chinese and Arabic (and maybe Hindi soon enough). Imagine sending out our cohorts of ambitious grads competent in those languages. They might even discover that there's a world beyond solipsistic identity politics.
You write about listening to Brel and Brassens as ways of improving your French though musically I suspect your heart really lies with Iron Maiden. (I realise Brel's songs are perhaps a better way of learning French than those of, say, Plastic Bertrand). Could you one day write about acquired taste or why high culture is considered higher? Do you think it more fitting for culturally un-stunted adult to prefer blue cheese, red wine, Schuman and Kandinski on the one hand to Dairy Lea, Vimto, Take That and Tony Hart on the other and if so, why?
When I was younger I liked the idea of learning another language. It felt like being party to a secret code. The only thing against it for me was that the time and energy spent learning a new language was time and energy not spent on understanding the world better. I now know this is called 'opportunity cost'. I'm still not sure whether a second language gives you a new pair of eyes, a fresh way of looking at the world, or merely alternative words to think the same thing. I speak reasonably good German but couldn't honestly claim that the world looks any different to me when I'm in German mode - except experiencing a slight yet unignorable urge to move east of the Oder for more Lebensraum.
French is relatively easy to take to the level of basic + communication. It is very accessible to English speakers as it uses SVO as its basic structure and has few meaningful inflections in the way that German or, way more difficult, Slavic languages have (congratulations to your father, Serbo-Croat is tough). Ok, there are genders, reflexive verbs etc but that’s manageable and structurally it’s hard to think of a language closer to English (other than maybe American English) l.
I think our lack of success more to do with attitude than inherent difficulty. We don’t really make a major effort to learn in school as it’s not perceived as useful, and we do still have an attitude problem with our French cousins. And then there’s a distinct lack of intensity. Learning a language at any age as an abstract exercise (ie not in a live environment) is a difficult task that require a lot of time and effort. Our 3 or 4 periods a week just aren’t enough.
It’s also a myth that kids are language sponges. They may - likely do - pick them up faster in a playground environment but in an academic setting adults will learn faster because adults have paradigms for learning - that is that by the time you’ve reached adulthood you’re likely to know how you best learn, having sat innumerable exams, and can adapt your approach to the subject. Children don’t know how they learn and therefore can’t do that. They need constant repetition or, other than in exceptional cases, will never really learn.
"Language is extremely complex. Yet very young children - before the age of five - already know most of the intricate system that comprises the grammar of a language. Before they can add 2+2, children are conjoining sentences, asking questions, using appropriate pronouns, negating sentences, forming relative clauses and inflecting verbs and nouns, and in general have acquired the syntactic, phonological, morphological and semantic rules of the grammar."
Fromkin et al 'An Introduction to Language' p.314.
Note: the work was written in 2007, ie during that 150,000 years or so when pronouns were a linguistic rather than a political issue.
Pretty much my entire time at high school seemed like my parents and their generation saying "we had to suffer this, so will you." A teenage day care centre for generational trauma.
Interestingly, the most useful part of high school was the informal teaching, i.e., when the teachers told us something about theirs lives. I was so much more engaged learning about how adults actually lived their lives than algebra.
As a (freelance) teacher now, I often make time to share an interesting tidbit about life with my students. In fact, some of the best "lessons" I've done is when we'll break off the ostensible lesson topics and simply chat about life for a bit. It's remarkable how the whole class seems to pay attention.
I did French in school pre-GCSE (this would have been mid 90s) but i can’t describe what the teachers were doing as “trying to teach me to speak French”.
Completing worksheets, struggling silently over translations, no explanation of how to practice vocabulary, no opportunities to practice speaking regularly with native or fluent speakers, the terror of having to stand up and say something in front of everyone each lesson don’t strike me in retrospect as what you do if you want someone to *actually learn to speak a language*.
Now having read books like Fluent Forever (strong rec) and having a much better idea how to actually learn to speak a language*, I sometimes think about what those teachers thought they were trying to do... they must have known that very few kids came out of it with any fluency... Somehow they were just going through the motions.
Are schools better at teaching languages these days?
* in one sentence: learn to distinguish unfamiliar sounds first, create your own flashcards and use them, practice with native speaker daily or close to.
Cada día, estoy intentando a aprender un poco más español. Es difícil porque tengo 62 años.
It’s never too late. Best of luck.
Bravo, monsieur West! Wishing you all the best on this learning adventure...I can share from personal experience over a lifetime of 67+ years, the very best way to gain proficiency in another language is through total immersion. Having lived, worked, spent holidays and studied abroad across the globe, you’re in the thick of it all and essentially must learn to communicate with your host country. That’s the reality of it all. It does require some initial bravado and intentional effort to get past the fear factor, but it actually works quite well and in time is great fun...be it the butcher, baker, fishmonger, postman or just any shopkeeper to help build your confidence with conversing. With some time, you venture out to chatting with strangers at cafés, pubs, clubs, pools, etc...and slowly friendships do develop and you’re conversing sports, culture and politics. It’s a strategy that bore boundless quantities of fruit for me over a lifetime. And it still works to this day!
By the by, I still have my prized full collections of Tintin books in French, English, German, Italian, Spanish and Portuguese that I read passionately as a young lad and on occasion whilst on holiday visiting my family’s estate in Normandy where they now reside, might read with a lovely chilled glass of rosé snuggled in a chaise lounge comfortably lost in the garden somewhere...
I have a few Tintin books in French which I find useful.
I have a tutor planned but we haven't booked lessons yet. I plan to do that then at some point take a few weeks (I don't know how realistically I can do this) to immerse myself.
I've also realised that the best way to get better at it is to read history in French, since it's the thing I like most in English.
If I may offer a tip: don't shy away from reading "trash". I mean the kinds of sensational paperbacks by unknown authors whose English equivalents you can buy in Oxfam for practically nothing. They're often very entertaining, and the language is accessible; they're a good bridge between graded readers and 'Madame Bovary'-level stuff.
Listening practice is important too. (Think of all the foreigners with amazing English who don't read much, but who love 'Friends' and 'The Big Bang Theory'.) You've mentioned podcasts; audio books are also a great resource. Much as some of us on the Right resent Amazon, I have to thank Amazon Audible for making getting dressed and washing the dishes infinitely more enjoyable activities than they used to be.
Finally, give it time and try to enjoy the process;) Good luck with it!
Another tip is to lean songs. As part of formal instruction on Spanish before Peace Cprp we had 2 hours/week of learning songs from our guitar-playing teacher. :)
Purchase the remaining books to complete the œuvre...you’ll be glad you did! Be intentional in picking your spot to holiday in France to afford you and your family optimal conversation opportunities...preferably a locale where you can walk everywhere and aren’t too remote. Funny thing is everyone speaks English here nowadays!
At my school (bog standard comprehensive, early to mid 1990s) we did French and the smarter kids did German. Because I was better at German, and it was closer to English, I liked it. I chose it at GCSE, then got called into the head of year's office with three girls; because only four of us wanted to do German, they weren't going to do it at GCSE. I haven't tried to learn a language since.
Still, that D in GCSE Business Studies has come in handy.
You touched on this with your last post, but a major reason why we anglophones aren't great at foreign languages is the global dominance of English, which the Internet has enormously sped up. I was talking a few years ago to a middle-aged English teacher at a French lycée. She said she could see each new cohort of pupils getting better year by year - thanks to the likes of Netflix and social media. So there seems less and less point in learning foreigners' languages when so many of them speak English so bloody well.
This doesn't just affect the native English speakers among us. I used to have a Japanese friend in Germany. She was able to speak German, but I noticed that often, strangers - waiters, hotel staff - would address her in English before she'd opened her mouth. Sometimes people would answer her in English even when she had spoken to them in German. They were guessing (correctly, as it happened) that her command of English was better.
Of course, the "everyone speaks Globish anyway" barrier isn't insurmountable. There are plenty of foreigners out there who are delighted to speak their language with a learner.
I suppose that to learn a foreign language well, with all the time and effort involved, we need a hook, an anchor, something to tie us to that culture. A significant other who speaks the language is ideal. Of course, that's not an option for all of us - and even making "ordinary" friends gets trickier as we get older. But some spark, something about the culture that we love and want to keep returning to - that's indispensable. Perhaps leisurely, history-filled holidays in the south of France, with plenty of wine and Radio Courtoisie playing in the car, could serve as your anchor, Ed!
Brian, I like the way you write. It reminds me of...me. I especially liked the fact you didn't berate German waiters etc. for speaking to your Japanese friend in English. Many people would launch into a tirade along the lines, 'After putting in so much effort to learn German...', apparently unaware that most Japanese people don't speak German and would be relieved to be addressed in a tongue they are more likely to understand. I have lived on and off in Japan for 20 years and am over the moon when someone correctly assumes I don't speak Japanese and addresses me in English. Of course it would be annoying if I answered in fluent Japanese and they still insisted on speaking in English. But that is an annoyance I will never know.
Clegg's Dutch is not very good at all btw.
I have been an EFL teacher for 29 years and think I have noticed during that time that English classes work in a similar way to Weight Watchers i.e. you don't actually lose any weight during your weekly visit to Weight Watchers, they merely act as a spur to losing weight during the rest of the week. Without the (in my case) daily lessons, students would soon lose the motivation to keep learning English since the ultimate goal of speaking English well would seem too distant, like an ever-receding horizon. So though there is indeed some learning and practice in my classes (honest to God there is), their real value is in keeping students motivated through their interaction with me and the other students. This is why liking, or God forbid even even admiring, your teacher is quite important. You want him or her to recognise the progress you are making. That YOU see it isn't enough for social animals like us.
So while it's possible to learn a language perfectly well on your own without a teacher or formal classes, you need the motivation to keep you going.
Good for you. I speak only Spanish besides English (the easiest of all possible languages for an English speaker) but still I think it is worth it. If nothing else, it expands your English vocabulary as relatively common words in Spanish (dormir) have high falutin' equivalents (dormer) in English. [French will no doubt do as well.] It also allows you to discover Grimms Law for yourself pei-foot, pluma feather, padre-father, pleno - full, etc. And there are some neat little distinctions esquina - outside corner, rincon - inside corner. And the matahysical mysteries of ser and estar. The parallax may have a short baseline, but it still helps measure the distance to other worlds.
Agreed! Good man. Germanophile here. Never got to do Classics in state school and am taking Latin at evening class aged (well, let’s say older, shall we?) Bonne chance, Viel Glück, Bonam fortunam with your studies! And your children too.
Good luck with the studies. I wish I had been more attentive at school and had the chance to immerse myself in French. Difficult 40 years later when you don’t get to France that often. On the other hand we were taught rigorously, lots of grammar and vocab so can still read the news. The problem for my kids and their peers is that learning a language requires hard work, application and deferred gratitude. At 12 years old you cannot see ‘le point’. All I can suggest that if you get to adulthood and have mastered a language, musical instrument or sporting proficiency, you will stand out from the crowd.
BTW, can you recommend any good French language podcasts?
thank you. I listen to Journal En Francis Facile. Have also started Au Cover de l'Historie
the duolingo one is good if you can ignore the obvious propaganda (everything is about migration)
I was thinking of a podcast like L’autre est histoire or one with three clergymen talking about this and that ...
What do you read, to help improve?
It's always seemed to me to be basic politeness to at least have a go at learning the language when one visits, (and essential if one lives in) another country. But the question of what we should teach nippers in school is another matter. Why French and German? Neither is much use when going about one's (or the nation's) business in distant shores.
Economic and political logical says, that in addition to comprehending English as an international language, we should be teaching Chinese and Arabic (and maybe Hindi soon enough). Imagine sending out our cohorts of ambitious grads competent in those languages. They might even discover that there's a world beyond solipsistic identity politics.
You write about listening to Brel and Brassens as ways of improving your French though musically I suspect your heart really lies with Iron Maiden. (I realise Brel's songs are perhaps a better way of learning French than those of, say, Plastic Bertrand). Could you one day write about acquired taste or why high culture is considered higher? Do you think it more fitting for culturally un-stunted adult to prefer blue cheese, red wine, Schuman and Kandinski on the one hand to Dairy Lea, Vimto, Take That and Tony Hart on the other and if so, why?
When I was younger I liked the idea of learning another language. It felt like being party to a secret code. The only thing against it for me was that the time and energy spent learning a new language was time and energy not spent on understanding the world better. I now know this is called 'opportunity cost'. I'm still not sure whether a second language gives you a new pair of eyes, a fresh way of looking at the world, or merely alternative words to think the same thing. I speak reasonably good German but couldn't honestly claim that the world looks any different to me when I'm in German mode - except experiencing a slight yet unignorable urge to move east of the Oder for more Lebensraum.
'...half the children being allocated French and the other half Spanish'.
So the children are allocated a language at random, regardless of prior knowledge or interest? Who has ever heard such a stupid idea?