Sorry Ed, but you must not be familiar with the maxim: When men get older, they look like Sean Connery; when women get older, they look like.....Sean Connery.
Isn’t the big difference between male vs female desirability as we age the relative importance of physical attraction? Women are comparatively more drawn to power, wealth etc - not just in a gold-digging sense but actual sexual attraction.
I used to work in one of the ‘magic circle’ law firms and it was very common for otherwise unremarkable men in their mid 40s complete with paunch to be bonking mid-20s Oxbridge grad blonde stunnas. The key factor was that, within the firm only, the partners were treated like minor gods, everyone took their showboating on conference calls seriously etc. They were categorically alpha.
I think it is difficult to imagine the converse, and in fact female partners were disproportionately unmarried - possibly because they found it difficult to meet men whose social status they found attractive (bearing in mind these are people for whom career and income are extremely important).
To clarify re your final paragraph - I don’t think it’s just the money. I’m sure you would find a similar thing among men who were high status within their social context - eg presumably there are various high ranking crusties in Extinction Rebellion who are cleaning up.
I can't speak to the Magic Circle but I spent years in a consulting world dominated by grads of elite universities both in the US and Europe. It was rare for mid 20s women to date significantly older men. It may have happened, but it was not the norm. The vast majority of people pared up with similar ages and backgrounds. Most of us, male or female, would have found dating much older people somewhat perverse. And I'd further argue that in today's environments, it's dangerous grounds for an accomplished professional to attempt to date too young due to HR oversight and fears of sexual harassments charges.
However, I have met successful entrepreneur with a much younger, and usually blond, wife. Ed is right - these alpha examples are not commonplace. They do exist but most of us are not in this magical clique, even if we wanted to.
I must be some kind of freakish anomaly or sick fetishist because I don't think women "peak" at attractiveness at 19 or whenever it's supposed to be and women under the age of like 27 look like kids to me. I'm 42, incidentally.
I wonder if there will turn out to be, for men, a conflict between their (average) biological peak and delayed social development. I recently asked my two oldest sons, 28 and 25, if they had any notions of starting their own families at some point. They both shrugged.
My brother's first wife was ten years younger than he (32/22), and his second wife is 17 years younger. By the time he was ready to settle down, women his own age were either married or divorced with children and lots of baggage. Of course, this was some time back: his first marriage was 25 years ago and the second 16 or 17 years ago.
I think it goes back and forth. early modern Europe men married surprisingly late, as in mid-20s, because they needed to earn enough. as with many things early 20th century America was like the peak of bourgeoise existence where people could marry young.
I also wonder - I don't know - if men's brain development is speeded up by necessity. surely having to provide early makes them more mature early.
I am almost 70. My lover is 62 and very much attracted to me. The sex is still very enjoyable and satisfying. On the street nobody would give me a second look except as a typical stout grey haired pensioner. I think he is still very handsome and a younger woman in his workplace once proposed they have an affair. He wisely declined. Workplace affairs rarely end well. She is mid-30s, slim, blonde, very pretty. But - for some reason - he prefers me. We have been in a relationship since 1988.
Biology is nasty. Humanity has spent its entire existence fighting biology, but biology always wins in the end (we can apply this reasoning to a whole bunch of current cultural battles too....)
"Indeed, by the time men hit 40, even women their own age would prefer someone younger, although male youth preference is far more pronounced. If you can’t get a date in your 20s, you’re not going to get one in your 30s or 40s; maybe the girls who turned you down now struggle to find someone, too, but it’s all relative."
The link doesn't support Ed's claim - it says that women stop approaching men because they assume they're taken. That is NOT the same thing as those men having become unattractive.
The biggest error in this article is the assertion that men who can't get dates in their 20s won't get dates in their 30s. That is... egregiously wrong, for a number of reasons. One is that in our age of ever-prolonged adolescence and delayed maturity, the 30s are when many men start displaying symptoms of true masculinity. Another is that men in their 30s are age peers of rapidly declining women whose biological clocks are ticking. Women who wouldn't have given the time of day to certain men when both were 25 are all over said men when both are 35.
This article seems overall predicated on the notion that men appeal to women in exactly the same way that women appeal to men - pure visceral physical appeal. This is nonsense.
Personal experience as a man in online dating, contacts from women really increased a lot in my early 30's and really peaked around 32-33. Then fell off a cliff at 35.
Older women value men's good looks, especially things like a nice face, much less than men of all ages value women's. If a man isn't a complete gross pig (i.e. the living embodiment of Norf FC) or suffering severe personality problems, he can still be in the game.
But women do value good looks, and in a society where men and women have equal financial opportunities, education and contraceptives, with highly delayed marriage (none of which is remotely typical of human societies) then yeah, women go for looks as part of the package, especially when they themselves are young and can be picky. Imagine, 50 years ago, men working out and drinking protein shakes - my grandfather (not an attractive man at any time) would have found it comical.
Although it's not so much that the men in question here have become 'more attractive' as such, rather that the pulling power of the 30-something women pursuing them has decreased relatively.
Sorry Ed, but you must not be familiar with the maxim: When men get older, they look like Sean Connery; when women get older, they look like.....Sean Connery.
Isn’t the big difference between male vs female desirability as we age the relative importance of physical attraction? Women are comparatively more drawn to power, wealth etc - not just in a gold-digging sense but actual sexual attraction.
I used to work in one of the ‘magic circle’ law firms and it was very common for otherwise unremarkable men in their mid 40s complete with paunch to be bonking mid-20s Oxbridge grad blonde stunnas. The key factor was that, within the firm only, the partners were treated like minor gods, everyone took their showboating on conference calls seriously etc. They were categorically alpha.
I think it is difficult to imagine the converse, and in fact female partners were disproportionately unmarried - possibly because they found it difficult to meet men whose social status they found attractive (bearing in mind these are people for whom career and income are extremely important).
yes, but that power and status is very rare and unusual
To clarify re your final paragraph - I don’t think it’s just the money. I’m sure you would find a similar thing among men who were high status within their social context - eg presumably there are various high ranking crusties in Extinction Rebellion who are cleaning up.
[shudder]
I can't speak to the Magic Circle but I spent years in a consulting world dominated by grads of elite universities both in the US and Europe. It was rare for mid 20s women to date significantly older men. It may have happened, but it was not the norm. The vast majority of people pared up with similar ages and backgrounds. Most of us, male or female, would have found dating much older people somewhat perverse. And I'd further argue that in today's environments, it's dangerous grounds for an accomplished professional to attempt to date too young due to HR oversight and fears of sexual harassments charges.
However, I have met successful entrepreneur with a much younger, and usually blond, wife. Ed is right - these alpha examples are not commonplace. They do exist but most of us are not in this magical clique, even if we wanted to.
Nothing like a devastating blackpill first thing in the morning (male, 31, very much single...)
I must be some kind of freakish anomaly or sick fetishist because I don't think women "peak" at attractiveness at 19 or whenever it's supposed to be and women under the age of like 27 look like kids to me. I'm 42, incidentally.
Fascinating, in a "not my problem" sorta way.
I wonder if there will turn out to be, for men, a conflict between their (average) biological peak and delayed social development. I recently asked my two oldest sons, 28 and 25, if they had any notions of starting their own families at some point. They both shrugged.
My brother's first wife was ten years younger than he (32/22), and his second wife is 17 years younger. By the time he was ready to settle down, women his own age were either married or divorced with children and lots of baggage. Of course, this was some time back: his first marriage was 25 years ago and the second 16 or 17 years ago.
I think it goes back and forth. early modern Europe men married surprisingly late, as in mid-20s, because they needed to earn enough. as with many things early 20th century America was like the peak of bourgeoise existence where people could marry young.
I also wonder - I don't know - if men's brain development is speeded up by necessity. surely having to provide early makes them more mature early.
Good point. I was surprised to read in Ian Mortimer's Elizabethan book that the average age of marriage for both men and women was mid-20s.
yes I was surprised when I first learned that.
Late puberty due to poor nutrition was probably also a factor.
I am almost 70. My lover is 62 and very much attracted to me. The sex is still very enjoyable and satisfying. On the street nobody would give me a second look except as a typical stout grey haired pensioner. I think he is still very handsome and a younger woman in his workplace once proposed they have an affair. He wisely declined. Workplace affairs rarely end well. She is mid-30s, slim, blonde, very pretty. But - for some reason - he prefers me. We have been in a relationship since 1988.
Biology is nasty. Humanity has spent its entire existence fighting biology, but biology always wins in the end (we can apply this reasoning to a whole bunch of current cultural battles too....)
"Indeed, by the time men hit 40, even women their own age would prefer someone younger, although male youth preference is far more pronounced. If you can’t get a date in your 20s, you’re not going to get one in your 30s or 40s; maybe the girls who turned you down now struggle to find someone, too, but it’s all relative."
The link doesn't support Ed's claim - it says that women stop approaching men because they assume they're taken. That is NOT the same thing as those men having become unattractive.
The biggest error in this article is the assertion that men who can't get dates in their 20s won't get dates in their 30s. That is... egregiously wrong, for a number of reasons. One is that in our age of ever-prolonged adolescence and delayed maturity, the 30s are when many men start displaying symptoms of true masculinity. Another is that men in their 30s are age peers of rapidly declining women whose biological clocks are ticking. Women who wouldn't have given the time of day to certain men when both were 25 are all over said men when both are 35.
This article seems overall predicated on the notion that men appeal to women in exactly the same way that women appeal to men - pure visceral physical appeal. This is nonsense.
I've long known that lifting weights can offset alot of unattractive traits. That knowledge made this Onion article hit VERY close to home.
https://www.theonion.com/nation-s-short-bald-guys-announce-plans-to-become-unner-1848923057
Personal experience as a man in online dating, contacts from women really increased a lot in my early 30's and really peaked around 32-33. Then fell off a cliff at 35.
Older women value men's good looks, especially things like a nice face, much less than men of all ages value women's. If a man isn't a complete gross pig (i.e. the living embodiment of Norf FC) or suffering severe personality problems, he can still be in the game.
But women do value good looks, and in a society where men and women have equal financial opportunities, education and contraceptives, with highly delayed marriage (none of which is remotely typical of human societies) then yeah, women go for looks as part of the package, especially when they themselves are young and can be picky. Imagine, 50 years ago, men working out and drinking protein shakes - my grandfather (not an attractive man at any time) would have found it comical.
And yet we do get examples like this (from the Mail, ofc): https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-4173616/Divorced-men-50-catching-eyes-women.html
Although it's not so much that the men in question here have become 'more attractive' as such, rather that the pulling power of the 30-something women pursuing them has decreased relatively.
haha, Oceans' 11 they ain't
No, but they're wearing suits, which shows effort.